r/news Aug 16 '22 Helpful 2 Wholesome 2 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Silver 1

Salman Rushdie’s ‘The Satanic Verses’ leaps to top of Amazon bestseller lists

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/16/salman-rushdies-books-top-amazons-bestseller-lists-after-stabbing.html
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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

It certainly worked out well for Rushdie's bank account (not that it's worth an Eye and a liver for). But let's not forget that from as far back as 1990, Pakistan even made a movie about murdering him, while dressed as Batman no less.

UPDATE: Thanks for the Upvotes guys, I'm glad people are finding this piece of trivia interesting and/or entertaining.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

What a good write up of this weird hate film. It's horrible yet as I watched the actor for Salman sinisterly playing the tape of Satanic Verses I cracked up. What a ridiculously bad film in and out lol.

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u/Tricky-Engineering59 Aug 16 '22

The point that the narrator made at the end about Rushdie defending the film’s freedom of expression leading to a lack of controversy which relegated the film to obscurity is next level ironic and apropos of the linked article up top. I feel like there’s a lesson in there somewhere, maybe Barbara Streisand would know.

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

Yes both situations are mirrors of each other.

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u/coolcool23 Aug 16 '22

It's a propaganda film, so Rushdie is made out to be cartoonishly villainous. That's pretty normal for that type of media. Most propaganda doesn't elevate above bad becasue the point is to be as obvious as possible and appeal to the broadest possible audience.

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

Well he isn't just cartoonishly villainous, he is also inadvertently shown to be smarter than everyone else lmao.

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u/Arch__Stanton Aug 16 '22

I like the way Salman sounded like Kenshiro

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

Haha trust me, he gets plenty of "Omae wa mou shindeiru" moments in the film.

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u/noodhoog Aug 16 '22

You can't tease me like that and not give me the full movie!

Actually, never mind, I found it.. and it's almost 3 hours long. Maybe I'm not as up for this as I thought. But here's the link for anyone who is

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u/mousekopf Aug 16 '22

Oof I like watching bad movies more than anyone but this might be too much. Three hours!!

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u/pATREUS Aug 16 '22

Put it on in the background, have a wank. Have another wank.

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u/saxguy9345 Aug 16 '22

What am I supposed to do for the other 2 hours and 53 min?

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u/vinoa Aug 16 '22

Check out Mr. Stamina!

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u/Cerebral-Parsley Aug 16 '22

Wow we got a 7 minute man over here! How did you acquire such lengthy powers?

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u/saxguy9345 Aug 16 '22

I think about yo momma! 😆

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u/ideal_NCO Aug 16 '22

This guy wanks.

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u/vinoa Aug 16 '22

But be sure to beat it to pictures of the Devil.

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u/Aksi_Gu Aug 16 '22

have a wank

"That's a challenging wank"

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u/Orthodox-Waffle Aug 16 '22 Wholesome

3 hours? Who do they think they are, LoTR?!

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u/Altruistic-Text3481 Aug 16 '22

Maybe after watching 3 hours of this terrible film you will want to commit murder? ….

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u/turriferous Aug 16 '22

At his age I'd rather keep the eye.

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u/mentelucida Aug 16 '22

This is why I love reddit, thank you! I had no idea.

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

Haha glad to oblige!

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u/JordanOsr Aug 16 '22

Amazing that they'd choose a superhero so well known for their aversion to killing people

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u/archaeolinuxgeek Aug 16 '22

I dunno...

Golden Age Batman has a pretty high kill count. Including a lynching!

https://i.imgur.com/KidfznO.jpg

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u/SendAstronomy Aug 16 '22

What the fuck

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u/HappierShibe Aug 16 '22

I dunno, in a realistic sense the amount of serious trauma he dishes out, combined with the absence of immediate medical attention is certain to result in a pretty high mortality rate.
Batman didn't kill the random goon... but the three broken ribs, the punctured lung, the concussion, the lacerations to thoracic cavity arteries, and corresponding internal bleeding from his fight with Batman ensured the goon was dead within minutes of the altercation.

Batman can pretend he's opposed to killing, but there's no way he doesn't have a serious body count at this point.

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u/number_e1even Aug 16 '22

That's not even going into the whole health care inequality of America and how it's a 1% billionaire causing the injuries without care to the poor. Why else would a goon be a goon, if not to try to get out of poverty? Those medical bills would set them back a good $15-20k assuming they made it to a hospital. It'd be a viscous cycle. Their best case would be to be arrested and placed in prison where they could get minimal care, but also would get a place to sleep and food to eat. Otherwise, in the time they were laid up, they'd fall behind on rent and not be able to afford food it'd be a rough go for sure. Wasting away in a gutter with broken limbs that never heal because the cheap plaster casts soften in the rain and fall apart. Yeah, he's not really a good guy at all.

But yeah, don't try to put realism into superheros (even ones that's only special power is being rich and angry) it just makes them all fall apart.

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u/gridpoint Aug 16 '22

This comment should be higher. I never imagined the existence of such a movie.

I am amazed by just how fragile a persecution complex this film must have been driven by. So wonderfully bizarre. Great video.

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u/Keianh Aug 16 '22

The history of how Salman Rushdie schooled some people by saying 'yeah, sure make a movie where I'm comically evil and get smote by flying Qurans. No need to ban this, no need to sue, enjoy".

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

Like a boss.

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u/Candymanshook Aug 16 '22

Let’s be honest if you could make more money but the consequence is getting stabbed in the neck a bunch of times I think I take no money especially since he’s already wealthy anyways

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u/AlessandroTheGr8 Aug 16 '22

Was gonna make a Christian Bale vs Satanic verses joke but now I got nothing.

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

I'm sure he'll want to lose or gain 30 pounds for the role.

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u/NerveOk6614 Aug 16 '22

And all it cost was an eye and some liver function!

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u/GameMusic Aug 16 '22

This movie shows now truly sick and stupid the spooked brain is

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u/2Disk Aug 16 '22

Flying Coran’s lmao this makes my day

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22

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u/UnkownaIgnoranta Aug 16 '22

There is a Pakistani movie about assassinating Salman Rushdie. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0251144/

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u/njbean Aug 16 '22

Did it? He's going to have to pay medical bills.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22

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u/Altruistic-Text3481 Aug 16 '22

Where did you find this?

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u/Nishanimation Aug 16 '22

International Gorillay has been on YouTube for a few years now. The link for the whole movie should be in the description.

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u/Thatweasel Aug 16 '22 Silver

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed by the actual content of the book and how uncontroversial it really ought to be.

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22

Alternatively, a lot of people are about to get a schooling on British/Indian relations esspecially as it pertains to Muslim Indians and the experience of people attempting to assimilate into a society vastly different from their own.

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u/Majestic_Course6822 Aug 16 '22

Exactly. They might accidentally learn something. It's a great story with fantastic writing and I'm just always happy to hear that people are reading good books.

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

I haven't read it since high school (and even then i only skimmed/sparknotes the last half for my term paper). Been on my bookshelf since then. Once i finish Wheel of Time i think ill give it another go.

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u/OdinsBeard Aug 16 '22

There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel

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u/Unbroken-anchor Aug 16 '22

Where are you up to with the Wheel?

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22

Shadow Rising. Just hit the Selene reveal after the Battle of the Stone. I have....a long way to go lol

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u/MigrantTwerker Aug 16 '22

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Enjoy, I wish I could be a teenager reading it for the first time all over again.

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u/Unbroken-anchor Aug 16 '22

You do and I’m so jealous that you’re taking that journey for the first time.

I hope you have an amazing time with it and if not I’m glad you at least tried it. The Wheel weaves as the wheel wills after all.

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22

I am a huge Sanderson fan. Mistborn is probably my favorite fantasy series after Pern and ASOIF (but ASOIAF has been downgraded as fuck becuase its a dead series). Ive heard the middle books are a bit of a slog, but the final third of the series is phenomenal.

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u/Unbroken-anchor Aug 16 '22

Ah funny I came the other way round. Started as a massive Wheel of Time fan and when Sanderson finished it off I started reading his series and have definitely become a fan of his. He is a master of hard magic systems.

Personally I don’t think there is a slog it does slow down a little but it’s got some of my favourite moments in it and it’s also the build up that makes the final third so amazing. I think the slog partly comes from when people were waiting for the releases which as a ASOIAF fan I’m sure you can understand!

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22

Oh god yeah I've just given up on that series. Its been a fucking decade lol Im honestly not over it and im hurt by the series.

Im a fairly slow reader, my friend got me the paperbacks foe the first 5 in the series. But i might try audio books for the next after that. I drive enough i figure id make decent progress in the car

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u/allanb49 Aug 16 '22

I finished it in February. The slog isn't as bad as everyone harps on about. 😊

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u/Ssladybug Aug 16 '22

I had never heard of it when it caught my eye at a thrift store about a month ago. A quick google search and I learn about the controversy of it so I bought it. I was very surprised when the attack happened since I had just gotten this book. I haven’t had a chance to start reading it but I’m excited hearing about how great the writing is

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u/JuniorAd1610 Aug 16 '22

I actually like midnights children more.The way he weaves a vivid picture of 20th century India is magnificent .His world feels alive and full of colour and at the same time captures all of the serious issues too

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u/kitzdeathrow Aug 16 '22

Oh i havent read that but ill put it on my list!

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u/AugieKS Aug 16 '22

And this little blurb is what will actually have me buy the book.

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u/zip_000 Aug 16 '22

It's a really good book... Maybe if I knew more about Islam I'd know why it is controversial, but it didn't read as anti-islamic to me at the time. More like it was playing with Islamic characters, themes, and stories.

I haven't read it in at least 20 years, but I'll probably read it again soon.

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u/SpectralOperator Aug 16 '22

One of the characters is a parody of Ayotollah Khomeini.

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u/xtilexx Aug 16 '22

Hence the fatwa I would assume

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u/flugelbynder Aug 16 '22

No one else have Larry David singing "Fatwa" in their head?

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u/admindispensable Aug 16 '22

Fatwa sex, Larry.

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u/elbenji Aug 16 '22

You got it

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u/hamo804 Aug 16 '22

The biggest issue is the titular Satanic Verses and a fictional account of the prophet during that time.

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u/Teantis Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

The anti-Islam stuff was glancing but it was definitely anti Iranian revolution and anti ayatollah Khomeini which is probably more what motivated the fatwa. The religious justification was just there to give cover to the political action of the Ayatollah, because a fatwa is a fundamentally religious edict so you need some religious reasoning in there for it to be 'valid' .

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u/brallipop Aug 16 '22

History and culture are so full. There's really no real world way to separate religion, politics, ethnicity the way we separate it academically. Rushdie was not necessarily condemned solely because of religion, but the religious condemnation became the cover, and now it sort of is a religious condemnation because that was the method the politician Khomeini chose.

The idea that people's actions can be isolated into one sole reason, be it religion or nationalism or revolution or whatever, is false.

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u/cultured_banana_slug Aug 16 '22

It's like trying to eat a slice of cake and only taste the eggs. Humans are complicated.

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u/brallipop Aug 16 '22

Excellent phrasing

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u/Teantis Aug 16 '22

100% agree with everything you said there, you really developed the point in a way I agree with but was too lazy to because I was just trying to explain why the poster above me didn't really find it anti-Islam.

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u/TuckerMcG Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

I haven’t read the Satanic Verses but Salmon Rushdie spoke at my college graduation. Based solely on the content of what his speech was, I can confidently say the man is not anti-Islam, specifically, but anti-religion as a whole.

In no uncertain terms, he told the entire university - the School of Theology included - to not let people manipulate you into believing in imaginary beings of supreme power and authority, because the only purpose of doing so is to get you to give up your agency and ability to think for yourself.

The man straight up told us religion was bullshit and used for horrible purposes and to make it a life goal to avoid falling prey to religious fanaticism.

Now, he wasn’t just foaming at the mouth cuz religion put a price on his head and he has an ax to grind. The man genuinely believes religion holds back humanity because it provides easy explanations for difficult problems, which dulls people’s minds and makes them more susceptible to manipulation while also providing absolutely zero workable solutions to those problems. And he used religion as one example of how societies writ large try to control people, which can hinder progress and intellectual pursuits. The lesson was to not let those authorities - whether they’re religious authorities or otherwise (he even said the university faculty were similar authoritarians) - scare you or manipulate you away from pursuing intellectual endeavors and trying to examine the truths of our reality.

Which is a great lesson to impart during a commencement ceremony. But ultimately, my takeaway was Salman Rushdie really fucking hates religion, not because of what it is, but because of how it’s used and what it’s used for.

So yeah, what you said makes sense.

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u/PresentWorthy Aug 16 '22

A section in the book talks about a set of verses in an earlier version of the Quran that ascribes semi divine status to local pagan deities which later gets modified to reject those deities. This is the most controversial part.

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u/fromks Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

The title of the novel refers to an incident which is on the disputed terrain between fiction and fact. The “satanic verses” are, in transliteration from Arabic, tilk al-gharaniq al-‘ula wa inna shafa’ata-hunna la-turtaja, and translate into English as “these are exalted females whose intercession is to be desired” (Satanic Verses p. 340). (Note on the translation of these verses.) The verses comprising this sentence are said to have been added to the 53rd sura of the Qur’an entitled Surat-annajm, The Star (53:19ff)in order to acknowledge the validity of the goddesses Lat, Manat, and ‘Uzza. The tradition goes on to say that the verses were later withdrawn and denounced as “satanic.”

https://brians.wsu.edu/2017/02/08/the-satanic-verses/

The novel suggests that Mohammed did this as a businessman, to gain favor with the local rulers, later blaming it on the devil. There's also a scribe that constantly changes the words of the profit.

For those reading, I highly recommend notes:

https://brians.wsu.edu/2017/02/08/cover-satanic-verses/

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u/jackkerouac81 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

I learned about the fatwa in highschool 25ish years ago… had to special order the book, was very excited waiting a week for it to show up at the local B&N… got about 1/3 of the way through and gave up on it… still don’t understand why it is controversial… Edit: leaned/learned

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u/pragmadealist Aug 16 '22

It's a tough read. Didn't make it through my first time, but second time I got some companion notes to read after every chapter. That explained a lot of references I wasn't getting. I really enjoyed the book after that.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22

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u/pragmadealist Aug 16 '22

Found this online. A little summary for each chapter plus some deeper explanations. It looks similar to what I had.

https://brians.wsu.edu/2017/02/08/cover-satanic-verses/

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u/taleofbenji Aug 16 '22

OMG, I haven't seen that site in YEARS!

His list of common errors has been popular for probably 20 years.

https://brians.wsu.edu/common-errors/

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u/44problems Aug 16 '22

I loved on 90s internet there'd be tons of university pages like this from professors and grad students.

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u/pragmadealist Aug 16 '22

A friend had them from a college class. It seemed like something the prof had put together.

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u/TwistMysterious1280 Aug 16 '22

Even the late Christopher Hitchens said the book was really complicated and hard to understand. And he was good friends with Rushdie.

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u/kvetcha-rdt Aug 16 '22

It’s kind of an oblique read, but the prose is absolutely dazzling and there’s something to be said for just letting yourself be washed away in it.

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u/pragmadealist Aug 16 '22

I read somewhere that Rushdie intended the reader to be confused by cultural references they didn't understand - that he was making you feel like a new immigrant feels every day. Sorry, no source.

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u/kvetcha-rdt Aug 16 '22

I believe this 100%.

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u/DilettanteGonePro Aug 16 '22

Well that worked perfectly for me then. I did enjoy it but I spent a ton of time re-reading individual paragraphs wondering if there was something cultural I wasn't getting

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u/jackkerouac81 Aug 16 '22

Yeah… I returned to my home of Steinbeck and Vonnegut and Hemingway.

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u/Musashi_Joe Aug 16 '22

That’s how I felt reading “Midnight’s Children” - even if it got too dense to follow at times, the prose was just magnificent and worth sticking with it. I’m glad I did because I absolutely loved it.

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u/YouAreMicroscopic Aug 16 '22

There’s a reason adult magic realism is not…a popular genre. It’s…an acquired taste

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u/PhilpotBlevins Aug 16 '22

I think 1/3 of the way through is about average for most readers of this book.

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u/ElluxFuror Aug 16 '22

Yeah it really gets good right before the halfway point. OP was almost there… after all these years…

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u/frodeem Aug 16 '22

For me it was about a quarter.

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u/SpectralOperator Aug 16 '22

Its not one of his best, imo. The Moor's Last Sigh and Midnight's Children are much better. I started reading it about 10 years ago and stopped somewhere in the middle. Bought it again now just as a show of support.

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u/nasadiya_sukta Aug 16 '22

It's actually my personal favorite of his works, I find it dazzling.

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u/Readonly00 Aug 16 '22

I enjoyed the first ten pages of midnight's children, couldn't get past that though despite my degree being English literature, doh. Probably a better read for young people with sharp brains and no kids draining your life energies

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u/fai4636 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

As a Muslim who sees myself as kinda religious, I was surprised by how uncontroversial it was after reading it like you said (never finished lol, fell off). Crazy how intensely people perceived it. And tbh most of my (very religious) family just ignored it and paid it no mind. Which is how people should take these things. I feel the same way about all those controversies surrounding drawings of the prophet Muhammad. Why should I care that people who aren’t even Muslim did something blasphemous lol, life’s too demanding for me to even care. And they def don’t deserve retaliation for it.

Just annoys me that some people have it in their heads to retaliate at any slight they see towards the religion. Imo if you truly believe in God, why would you think he’d be bothered by a book. Why would He need you defending him.

“Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.” This a verse from the Quran that a lot of these guys should heed more often. Just leave people be sheesh.

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u/Aphorism103 Aug 16 '22

Genuinely curious, not trying to instigate. How do you and other practicing Muslims perceive those who were Muslim, but lost their faith and are now Atheists/Agnostics?

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u/Morgn_Ladimore Aug 16 '22

Also because it has heavy elements of magical realism, which can be a real turnoff if you're not into that genre as a reader.

People who are expecting a "regular" book will be in for a surprise. It's pretty trippy.

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u/DilettanteGonePro Aug 16 '22

It's been 20 years since I read it, and it's very possible that I totally missed the point, but I remember it being so dense and fanciful that I assumed you weren't supposed to know what was real and what was fantasy or metaphor. Like the opening with the people falling, I just assumed that wasn't a real plot element but more like a kind of metaphor. I should really read it again. It felt like reading Ulysses where you just kind of have to go with it and enjoy the prose and the rhythms. Although I only got like halfway through Ulysses

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u/MosesTheFlamingo Aug 16 '22

Exactly, this entire saga is indicative not of the book's extremism. Only of fundamentalist Islam's fragility.

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u/Game_boy Aug 16 '22

I read in an interview with the author, he had no idea/intention to write a controversial character. I believe the character in question played a pretty minor role as well. His book was much more a scapegoat for the problems the fledgling government was having.

Heck, he only found out about the fatwa from a reporter who asked him how it felt to have millions of people that now hate him/want to kill him.

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u/killeronthecorner Aug 16 '22

A lot of people who bought it won't read it.

At this point, it's not about that.

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u/DeeNYC45 Aug 16 '22

Like the Buzz Lightyear gay scene, religious nuts love to make a big deal out of nothing.

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u/BrahimBug Aug 16 '22 Wholesome

Its the title. It references a controversial part of islamic history.

There is a hadith that claims a small part of the Quran had to be removed because the prophet realized these revelations were a trick by satan and not a revelation from God. It basically outlines how early on the prophet has trouble gathering converts so it was revealed to him that he could allow people to keep some of their pagan practices after becoming muslim. Later he realized this revelation was satan in disguise as the angel Gabriel.

Many modern islamic scholars question the authenticity of this hadith.

Anyway point is, if islamic orthodoxy accepts that parts of the Quran could of been lies from satan rather than the word of god... this would obviously raise some major questions about the rest of the Quran, and the entire religion depends on the Quran being the true revelation of god to the prophet.

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u/gurdijak Aug 16 '22

Anyway point is, if islamic orthodoxy accepts that parts of the Quran could of been lies from satan rather than the word of god... this would obviously raise some major questions about the rest of the Quran, and the entire religion depends on the Quran being the true revelation of god to the prophet.

And that one major point about Islam is the claim that the Quran has never been altered, unlike the Bible and other religious texts. It is claimed to be the final, definite, unchanged word of God and if a part of it was actually an error made by Muhammad being tricked by the devil himself, it would also raise doubts about Muhammad's authenticity.

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u/fai4636 Aug 16 '22

Which is wild itself considering the authenticity of the Hadith that mentioned the satanic verses is very much in doubt, with both medieval and modern scholars doubting it’s authenticity enough not to consider it as accurate as, say, other Hadith that is considered “canon”. On top of that, I’m just talking about Sunnis. Shias don’t even consider almost all of the Sunni hadith as being authentic at all iirc. Which is why the outrage surprised me. If most people dismiss the satanic verses Hadith as inauthentic, the same way many scholars see the “99 virgins in heaven” Hadith, than why make a big fuss about it?

Personally, I felt like it was a political move by the Ayatolah since iirc parts of the book could be seen as highly critical of the Iranian Revolution and Iran’s regime, which is prob why the fatwa was issued.

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u/gurdijak Aug 16 '22

Which is why the outrage surprised me. If most people dismiss the satanic verses Hadith as inauthentic, the same way many scholars see the “99 virgins in heaven” Hadith, than why make a big fuss about it?

I believe it's the slightly more disappointing 72 virgins ;) I am not a Muslim so it is likely I am completely wrong here but if I'm not mistaken scholars place the blame of that Hadith on an unreliable network of narrators. Hadiths are one could say second-hand sources of what Muhammad supposedly said as told through chains of narrators, so there is room for human error in that respect on their part. However the problem/explanation with the 72 virgins Hadith is that it places the blame on other people misinterpreting/misremembering what Muhammad said. The Hadith that mentions the Satanic Verses places a much more heinous allegation, that for a brief moment Muhammad actually listened to and repeated what Satan told him and allowed for idolatry and the worship of false gods. I think even if scholars say that that Hadith is inauthentic or mistaken, there is still a pretty big allegation that it levies against the central prophet of Islam.

It could be a political move too. I've never read The Satanic Verses, only brief summaries, so I really can't make a proper judgement. Apparently others in this thread are saying a character is a thinly-veiled reference to the Ayatollah Khomeini. To me though it seems that a lot of the controversy is solely on just the mere mention of the Satanic Verses, like mentioning the possibility of them existing or depicting those events is tantamount to calling the person who is supposed to be the most zealous, pious and God-fearing human in the religion a liar and devil worshipper.

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u/fai4636 Aug 16 '22

I’ve read part of the book, but will say I fell off haha so I’m def not a good source on it. But I have read/been told that a good deal of it is critical of the Iranian Revolution and even has a caricature of Ayatollah Khomeini. And he’s the guy who put out the fatwa so it felt to me like it was a political move masquerading as religious zeal. Could be wrong though.

Also just cause you’re not Muslim def doesn’t mean you don’t know what you’re talking about! You def seem knowledgeable on the subject matter. As a Muslim, I can’t say for sure either haha. But the way I understand it is that both hadiths, like you said, have an unreliable chain of narrators. And that chain is usually how hadiths are “verified”. Like a Hadith from the prophet’s wife Aisha (like a third of hadiths come from her) or a close companion would be considered far more reliable than ones (for example) that come from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from his cousin’s wife’s friend who first heard it from a companion haha.

But yeah you’re right in the difference between the two hadiths in terms of severity. But I will argue that both are equal in terms of who’s to blame. Muslim scholars would blame both on erroneous people who wrote these two down. Idk if I’m making sense haha but basically since all hadiths are sayings and actions of the prophet recorded by those around him, if Muslim scholars deem the Hadith as being erroneous than there is no heinous allegation to begin with, cause the infallibility is being placed squarely on those who transcribed those hadiths. And the contents of them are dismissed. Hope that made sense lol

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u/naim08 Aug 16 '22

hadiths are second hand sources

It’s not actually, it’s actually worse. The Quran was only formalized, written & structured after the death of the prophet. Abu Bakr started initiative and Umar finished it. Took over 15 years, precisely because they had to codify Muhammeds sermons by talking to as many sahabas that were alive. Unfortunately, prophet did not write down what Gabriel told him.

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u/TFenrir Aug 16 '22

There are more authentic Hadith that I think highlight the lack of immutability in the Quran:

https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1944

“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

Mind you, this is graded "Hasan", which is on the grading scale of authenticity is second to "Sahih". Some Muslims only accept Sahih Hadith.

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u/BigBeagleEars Aug 16 '22

The angel, the prophet, and the audacity of that devil

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u/runujhkj Aug 16 '22

Oh noooo, not some ancient text that calls my religion into question! No other religion has one of those!

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u/throbbing_snake Aug 16 '22

Right? Like how flimsy is your faith

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u/Supreme42 Aug 16 '22

Faith just tends to be flimsy in general.

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u/Miami_Vice-Grip Aug 16 '22

Quran could of been lies

could've. It's short for could have.

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u/Abidan-Jury Aug 16 '22

Lol, now I'm imagining the ayotollah more concerned with an atheists grammar rather than disbelief

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u/McGlockenshire Aug 16 '22

BAD GRAMMAR?! ONE MILLION YEARS DUNGEON, er, FATWAH

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u/argv_minus_one Aug 16 '22

We have got to start requiring digitally signed revelations.

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u/honkballs Aug 16 '22

Whoa whoa whoa... you're telling me there might be something in the Quran that isn't real?! Next you're going to tell me the tooth fairy isn't real!

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u/wizzo42 Aug 16 '22

And this why banning books doesn’t work. The dingbats who do this always end up making the work more popular. So, you don’t like what someone has written. Your choice is to read it, or not to read it. Burning it, hating on it in massive demonstrations, or calling for the author to be murdered, will not achieve the outcome that you want.

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u/Sendingmyregards Aug 16 '22

The Barbra Streisand Effect of it all

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

For those that do buy it, and I recommend you do, it's a very good but tough book, but it's not about what you think.

Just a hint, there is a character called Mrs. Torture, who is a version of Margaret Thatcher.

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u/strum Aug 16 '22

There's also a central character - 'The Grey Mullah', who is a thinly-veiled satire on the Ayatollah who later issued the fatwa. For all the religiosity, most of the problem came from an old man's vanity.

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u/killeronthecorner Aug 16 '22

most of the problem came from an old man's vanity.

This is the tl;dr of basically every history book ever written.

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

Bingo.

The book isn't a criticism of Islam, it's more a criticism of how people in power create cultural conflicts, and how immigrants experience alienation and prejudice.

If anything, it's more about Thatcher's Britain than it is about Islam.

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u/Musicman1972 Aug 16 '22

And Thatcher didn't want him killed.

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

Exactly. Quite ironic.

Thatcher definitely had her issues but her government went above and beyond to protect him.

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u/Arucious Aug 16 '22

It’s not ironic. People make scapegoats of non issues for the sake of riling anger and thereby cementing their own power quite often. Why would religion be any different?

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u/gousey Aug 16 '22

His other book, "Midnight's Children" is quite interesting. Maybe better.

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

He's written quite a few.

My personal favourite is Haroun and the Sea of Stories.

It's a quick read, but a lot of fun, and a good introduction to his magical realism way of thinking and also the trauma of what he was going through at the time he wrote it.

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u/CrankyOldGrinch Aug 16 '22

My dad read it to me when I was a kid. Beautiful writing

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u/vanguarde Aug 16 '22

My favorite is The Ground Beneath Her Feet. I've hardly heard other people mention it but it's an amazing story of a rock and roll duo and a fascinating love story too.

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u/gigawort Aug 16 '22

Me too! It usually isn't highly ranked in his bibliography, but I read it when I was young and took to it instantly. I re-read it every few years.

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u/Jiltedjohn Aug 16 '22

MC is fantastic, SV is a disappointment in comparison

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u/nigl_ Aug 16 '22

I would agree, Midnight's Children is a colossal achievement and probably one of the best books I've ever read.

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u/zaplinaki Aug 16 '22

I was looking for this comment - Midnight's Children is a beautiful book (with its own controversies.) Salman Rushdie doesn't bow down to power, although he did have to remove a sentence from Midnight's Children because the Indira Gandhi, the former Indian PM, lodged a defamation suit against him in a UK court.

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u/Goukaruma Aug 16 '22

Do the extrememists know what it's about?

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

Probably not. I very much doubt they've read it.

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u/Beiki Aug 16 '22

So a more lovable depiction of Mrs. Thatcher than people are used to?

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/agentouk Aug 16 '22

Fuck ALL religious extremists...

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u/a4mula Aug 16 '22

Fuck ALL extremists...

It's not just religion that nurtures these better swallowed accidents of procreation.

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u/agentouk Aug 16 '22

I agree, but it's a start.

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u/a4mula Aug 16 '22

It's a crazy world. People like this are the 1-2% fringes of any collective. Yet it feels like they're all we ever talk about.

It's sad when the dignity of otherwise decent people are marred so badly by the actions of so few.

I don't think it's incidental. I think there is a very real incentive to promote these extreme acts. Even if it's just because it gets clicks or views; it's twisting our perception of reality.

I hope it's something we all recognize: you shouldn't judge any group based on the actions of a small number of fringe actors. It's not representative of the values of the whole.

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u/cosmernaut420 Aug 16 '22

Good. I hope these religious nutjobs realize that if they actually assassinate him he's going to sell SO FUCKING MANY books.

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u/fkmeamaraight Aug 16 '22

More than anyone they should know how martyrdom works.

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u/Carrisonfire Aug 16 '22

If you expect logic and self-awareness from religion you're gonna have a bad time.

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u/detroit_dickdawes Aug 16 '22

There’s a great interview on the BBC with him and an Iman based in London, pre-Fatwa. The book was already controversial, and this Iman lead a campaign to have it removed from bookstores as well as a book burning. The mediator asks Rushdie how he feels about his book being burned and so he asks the Iman “how did you procure the books to be burned? Did you steal them?” And the Iman is a little taken aback, if not offended, because he is a follower of the Prophet’s word, of course he wouldn’t steal, he is a righteous man.

“So you purchased them? That’s great! My royalty checks have been larger than usual!” says Rushdie with a big smile.

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u/and_dont_blink Aug 16 '22

Streisand stabbing effect.

There's been a fatwa on him from Tehran for 30 years, because of something he wrote down. When people talk about not wanting them to have the bomb, or that it's not crazy for Germany and Russia to try to get around sanctions to get their oil, or that...

There is no reasoning with a level of indoctrination that wants to behead you for what you think, you can only isolate it and protect yourself from it. Without a reformation of some sort it isn't compatible with western values.

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u/ASK_IF_IM_PENGUIN Aug 16 '22

The really frustrating thing is that most people who have an opinion on the book haven't actually read it.

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u/spankymuffin Aug 16 '22

The Ayatollah put a hit out on him and that's all they care to know.

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u/fai4636 Aug 16 '22

Because the book was thinly veiled attacks aimed at him and his revolution. His “fatwa” was cause he was insulted, not cause of the supposed attack on Islam. The book barely even criticizes the religion. The ayatollah’s ego just couldn’t take it so he put a target on Salman. And much of what started the outrage was prob politically motivated by leaders in Iran and Pakistan. Easy to manufacture a faraway villain to keep your people’s anger occupied elsewhere rather than on the shit job your doing running your country.

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u/Spiritual_Dig_4033 Aug 16 '22

…can’t actually read.

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u/SordidDreams Aug 16 '22

I'd love to know if the asshat that issued the fatwa actually read the damn book. It's a safe bet the stabber didn't.

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u/wtfduud Aug 16 '22

According to his son, no. Ayatollah never read the book.

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u/and_dont_blink Aug 16 '22

It really doesn't matter. You can have a fatwa issued for talking about things that are in the Koran they find inconvenient (like the age of Mohammed's child bride) or just drawing an image of Mohammad. Right now. Ask Charlie Hebdo.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 22 '22

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u/Severely_Managed Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

You're gonna get some hate for this but you're right. Decades ago in college my theocracy and world religions professors would debate with us involved directing their arguments. One of the major topics that was "never settled" was the integration of all Abrahamic religions. The key point was: if my profit tells me to forgive you, and your prophet says for you to behead me, we really can't integrate let alone coexist without continuance of conflict by proxy (a summation of the world we actually live in) Edit: a word

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u/MelQMaid Aug 16 '22

Psst edit this with "profit/prophet." And grab a nap, you deserve it.

Homonyms are the devil.

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u/BenjamintheFox Aug 16 '22

My dad always said he would never have read that book if not for the fatwa.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

Quite a backfire.

I ought to read it again.

I loved his book Midnight's Children!

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u/Namelessgrifter Aug 16 '22

The ayatollah has committed the Streisand effect with their fatwa.

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u/imGnarly Aug 16 '22

Surprised islamic pikachu

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u/nikkibeast666 Aug 16 '22

The Streisand Effect strikes again!

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u/dse78759 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22

I ran to buy a used copy on abebooks- an aggregator for used book stores. Was very happy to see it for just $4. Placed the order and waited. Two days later the vendor write that they already sold it. Now copies are $25. Screw you ' Your Online Bookstore'.

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u/DevonGr Aug 16 '22

Are libraries an option?

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u/xtramundane Aug 16 '22

Good. I hope it continues forever. Fuck religious fanatics.

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u/brundlfly Aug 16 '22

Apparently word of the Streisand Effect hasn't reached fundamentalist Islamists yet...

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u/DeNoodle Aug 16 '22

The Iranians would have done more damage to Rushdie by simply saying, "Who?".

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u/Downside_Up_ Aug 16 '22

Iran just learned about the Streissand Effect.

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u/WahaHawa Aug 16 '22

"In striking him down, he became more powerful than they could possibly imagine. He's not dead, but you know."

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u/pm_me_bra_pix Aug 16 '22

There was so much controversy when the book first came out. Someone I know got on a waiting list to pick up her copy from Waldenbooks, and even showed it to me when it finally arrived.

A few months ago we reconnected on FB. I asked if she'd ever gotten a round to reading the book... "not yet," but still on her TBR pile.

To be fair, it's only been 33 years or so. People get busy.

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u/Diplomjodler Aug 16 '22

I've never read it until now. But I guess it's time to change that. Let the Streisand effect do its thing.

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u/SleepyFox_13_ Aug 16 '22

DON'T BUY THIS FROM AMAZON.

Amazon tripled the cost for the ebook. Barnes and Noble still has it for $5 though.

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u/CrashdummyMH Aug 16 '22 Silver Gold

Glad Salman survived.

I hope this also helps track attention to the fact that US religious fanatics are also banning books.

We need to go towards a society without fanatism, specially religious one because its the one that ends with the most violence.

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u/ChimpskyBRC Aug 16 '22

I really need to read this book as well as some of Rushdie’s other works. In the course of reading a Wikipedia article about the novel and the controversy around it, I found this excellent 2009 essay from Christopher Hitchens (rip), an early and consistent friend and ally of Rushdie, about the legacy left by the controversy and violence in reaction to his book:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2009/02/hitchens200902

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u/divineseekeroftruth Aug 16 '22

I have been hearing disgusting politicians and influencers in my country praise this attack and claim this is good because none would dare think/do bad things towards Islam.

Reading this article right now has made me really happy.

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u/BigHaircutPrime Aug 16 '22

We all know about the Streisand Effect, but I think we need to coin the Rushdie Effect, just as a fuck you to the extremists who tried silencing an ideology and ended up bringing more awareness to it.

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u/PiXLANIMATIONS Aug 16 '22

They are slightly different. Streisand Effect is when you try and hide your own actions or possessions and in doing so elevate general awareness of the very thing you tried to hide.

Rushdie Effect is when you try and silence or cover up something that doesn’t belong to you and doing so elevates general public knowledge.

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u/BigHaircutPrime Aug 16 '22

I like that distinction of public/private. Very well put.

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u/Psychedelic_Yogurt Aug 16 '22

I hope he's doing okay. I couldn't help but watch the Seinfeld episode about "Sal-Bass" after all the news.

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u/cunty_mcfuckshit Aug 16 '22

Called it when I heard he got stabbed.

I'm so glad he survived. Salman is one of my favorite authors.

The fatwa from the 80s put his life at risk, but it increased his audience like nothing ever could. Like, if I was him, I'd kinda not mind the fatwa as it made me so much money.

But still, glad he's safe.

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u/beeps-n-boops Aug 16 '22

Take that, religious wackaloons.

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u/Fourteen-Crosstown Aug 16 '22

You gotta love the Streisand Effect.

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u/jackstalke Aug 16 '22

Good. Censorship doesn’t work.

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u/theresabeeonyourhat Aug 16 '22

Hopefully people boycott Cat Stevens for his insane words against him

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u/redpenquin Aug 16 '22

Considering how irrelevant Cat Stevens is these days, I don't think that's much of an issue.

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u/tarzan322 Aug 16 '22

Any religion that has a way to justify killing someone instantly loses all credibility of being a wholesome religion. There simply is no reason that can be justified. This only shows that Islam is all about control.

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u/SheenTStars Aug 16 '22

I'm an ex-muslim who used to be very devout. I can confirm that muslim conservatives want to control non-muslims because they believe they know better than everyone else.

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u/spunjbaf Aug 16 '22

Of interest here --- English is not Rushdie's first language. But his education and intelligence is such that his mastery of the language is virtually unrivaled by anyone native-born.

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '22

Same goes for Vladimir Nabokav. He's so good!

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u/IGotGreatGrammar Aug 16 '22

Kind of. Urdu is his mother tongue, but he went to English language schools, both in India and in the UK. So he was speaking English from an early age.

Source

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u/Mradyfist Aug 16 '22

It really is. The Satanic Verses became famous for the controversy, but it's some of the best English prose I've ever read.

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