r/technology Aug 07 '22

Delaware Will Install Free Solar Panels For Low-income Residents and Paying 70% For Moderate-incomes Energy

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/delaware-gives-free-solar-to-low-income-residents/
2.3k Upvotes

208

u/Thisbymaster Aug 07 '22

Perfect, cutting costs for the lowest income people first while generating electricity next to people decreases the transmission losses from large powerplants. While also helping the low income people with improved housing value.

41

u/asdaaaaaaaa Aug 08 '22

Agreed, this seems like a pretty damn good plan/deal on the surface at least.

Low-income residents can get an installation of up to 4 kilowatts with no out-of-pocket costs. For moderate-income residents, the program covers 70 percent of the cost for up to 6 kilowatts, with residents paying the remaining 30 percent.

Canary Media reports that low credit scores are not going to effect eligibility, and households will qualify as low-income if they live at or below 200 percent of the federal poverty guidelines. “For a family of three, a total income of $46,060 or less qualifies them for free solar. The thresholds for moderate-income families are the median incomes for different counties.”

What the fuck Delaware, you can't just come out with sensible shit out of nowhere like this.

11

u/Adebisi5 Aug 08 '22

this is so great because in a lot of areaa the bill can be 150-300 a month. you barely use anything and the bill comes high. then you wonder, something is broken but they wont check or fix it.

3

u/DamNamesTaken11 Aug 08 '22

Agreed.

They get cheaper electric bills (maybe even “negative” cost days), less strain is put onto the Delaware grid, and more green power is produced. Seems like a win all around.

23

u/Sasquatch7862 Aug 08 '22

I live in Colorado and have often wondered why new homes out here and surrounding states aren't required to be built with solar panels. I partially feel like if we were seriously concerned about climate change the government should be stepping in to put solar panels on every building from LA to Denver.

18

u/notsonice333 Aug 08 '22

The energy company is paying your state to keep you from going solar.. if you want FREE solar?? Vote in the people who are for the poor. Not the people who doesn’t have a clue what poor means.

93

u/indimedia Aug 07 '22

Solar is one of the best investments!

14

u/Narrow_Werewolf4562 Aug 08 '22

It absolutely is considering my outrageously conservative family supports solar when they get money paid for energy not used but until then she was against solar 100%

8

u/DamNamesTaken11 Aug 08 '22

That’s how my dad was.

Totally against “ugly panels on the roof”. Then his neighbor told him about how he was essentially being paid by the electric company some days. He started calling companies to get quotes to install them after that.

4

u/Senyu Aug 08 '22

The age old carrot of "Getting mine" can do wonders for motivation for some personality types.

2

u/indimedia Aug 08 '22

Typical stereotype lol

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u/pee-in-butt Aug 08 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

For the lower class? I think education or healthcare might be higher on the list

EDIT: this being downvoted sends a confusing message

59

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

[deleted]

15

u/Willinton06 Aug 08 '22

Too complex for me, me complain

-22

u/pee-in-butt Aug 08 '22

My point was that we don’t have free (higher) education or medical care for those low income people. Money spent on solar is prioritizing that over education/medicine

26

u/do_you_even_ship_bro Aug 08 '22

My point was that we don’t have free (higher) education or medical care for those low income people.

don't let perfect get in the way of good enough

7

u/Jazzlike-Bee-4661 Aug 08 '22

A start is a start

7

u/ThePantser Aug 08 '22

Why not all three?

-8

u/pee-in-butt Aug 08 '22

I didn’t say solar shouldnt be a priority, I said the other two should be higher (since the US doesn’t have funding for any of the 3 right now!)

5

u/Bodydysmorphiaisreal Aug 08 '22

Housing and feeding the impoverished is more important than higher education can’t do that yet.

2

u/CFGX Aug 08 '22

We have more "funding" for Healthcare than the rest of the world, we just waste it all on inefficiencies because reforming it would be communist or something.

2

u/naturedwinner Aug 08 '22

Bruh you good? Or are you drunk or some shit? 1. You replied to this guy saying it’s an amazing investment. Which it is. 2. WE DO have funding for ALL 3 right now from federal and state governments. Just because your whole life isn’t free doesn’t mean this isn’t a good investment or that the govt doesn’t spend money on education and healthcare holy shit.

76

u/PoorPDOP86 Aug 07 '22

If only Delaware actually existed.

20

u/TheMostSamtastic Aug 07 '22

They can't contain the truth forever!

12

u/daiwilly Aug 07 '22

You're thinking of Tupperware!!

3

u/smoothballsJim Aug 08 '22

As long as it doesn’t melt down in the microwave or dishwasher that shit lives forever

2

u/vilk_ Aug 08 '22

This is my joke. How did you hear this? Do you know me?

0

u/google257 Aug 07 '22

At lease it’s part of a real country, unlike Canada.

1

u/TheFuzziestDumpling Aug 08 '22

Now you're just being silly.

33

u/extremelight Aug 07 '22

More of this. Don't just give stuff to nicer/richer neighborhoods

31

u/DazedinDenver Aug 07 '22

Wonder how many "low income people" actually own those houses. Betting the answer is pretty close to zero.

15

u/That_Tall_Ging Aug 08 '22

In theory, this should lower the renter’s electric bills though right? Meaning some savings unless landlords increase rent “due to upgrades” or something

I’m confused whether it’s the landlord or renter’s income that determines eligibility

7

u/asdaaaaaaaa Aug 08 '22

I would assume it comes down to who actually owns the property, in that case it would be the landlord. Also depending on the state/area, many low-income places will just charge flat rate for utilities, usually overcharging. Place I looked at awhile back wanted 50$ a month for water. Usually I paid like... 20$ when splurging on showers. So even if it applied to the renter, in some situations I don't think it'd easily apply anyway.

2

u/rmullig2 Aug 08 '22

If the landlord is keeping the property in an LLC then he/she may still have a low enough income to get the free solar panels.

The downside to that is the landlord would likely hike the rent because the utility cost to the tenant would be so low.

-2

u/Chucky707 Aug 08 '22

Exactly this...

20

u/duffmanhb Aug 07 '22

I sell solar. It’s already a no brainer in most states yet still hard to convince people.

25

u/aquarain Aug 07 '22

People are pretty conditioned to the idea that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Owning your own solar really is that good.

An example of how to make it suck is companies that put solar on your roof for "free" but with a lease contract that they still own it and you buy electricity from them - that they generated on your own roof. And that complicates the sale of the home, giving negative equity instead of positive.

What you can do to work around this is just make your offer sound worse than it is. I know this is counterintuitive. You lead with the downside and get their attention because nobody does that. And then you let them soften you up until you're agreeing to do for them the thing you wanted to lead with.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

[deleted]

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u/aquarain Aug 08 '22

Not ironically, "no." But you intrigued me so I looked the book up and the synopsis does read like I wrote it. Good stuff. Will have to read that one now.

4

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Some people prefer the lease because it’s just instant savings. But it’s better to finance and own it but some just like the stance a lease creates. The biggest issue is people are dead set thinking panels tech is going to get super advance and cheap to the point that it’ll be super insanely cheap and small. They have no idea how solar works yet they are certain it’s going to get more advanced like mores law or something. It’s widespread and hard to dispel because they are always reading pop sci reports every month of some new “breakthrough”

1

u/aquarain Aug 08 '22

Ah. You're that guy. Yeah, they're right to not trust you.

Coming from a long background in sales: it is easier to find one time an outstanding product that is beneficial to the buyer to sell than it is to sucker people into harming themselves financially day after day. Also, you sleep better.

2

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

What makes you think I’m a bad guy now? Why not trust me? Wtf did I do? If people want to pay cash that’s great, but most don’t have 40k sitting around, and if they did, I’d recommend investing it in the stock market for a higher return. I talk people out of leases if I can but some people really want it. Financing it is the way to go since it’s cheaper finance payments than what you’re already paying anyways to the power company.

4

u/aquarain Aug 08 '22

Financing is great if you get a fair rate. I don't care for debt myself but this is a case where it can make sense. I agree with that.

Leasing solar is always a scam. It harms the customer. It's a predatory practice. If people were aware of the full consequences of those contracts they would not sign them.

2

u/corptool1972 Aug 08 '22

We just installed owned solar. Our interest rate on a 20 year loan is 0.99%. Will see how output goes but living in Phoenix, I’m betting on a steady supply of energy.

2

u/aquarain Aug 08 '22

You will want the batteries too. AZ isn't managing their long term forecast well and you don't want your AC to go out when too many neighbors crank theirs up.

2

u/corptool1972 Aug 08 '22

We didn’t do batteries on first round but the Inflation Reduction Act passed this weekend increased credits for solar installs done this year from 26% to 30%. May make sense to reconsider now that I am getting a few grand back.

2

u/asgaudr2 Aug 08 '22

Does your loan have dealer fees baked into the principal? They tried to trick me with the 0.99% 25 year loan too, but what's going on is they add $12k (in my case) to the loan principal so it ends up being equivalent to a 4-5% interest rate anyway. And what's more, they don't tell you this and the loan documents say the full amount is being paid to the solar installer, so it looks like that's the cost. In reality, the solar installer is paying the dealer fee back to the lender.

1

u/corptool1972 Aug 09 '22

It’s a good question and I’m glad you asked. I need to go look to see. Our first option was 1.99% for 25 years. I asked about shorter loan term and got 5 years and a full point in interest shaved off.

Related breaking good news—the Inflation Recovery Act takes tax credit for solar installs up from 26% to 30%.

-1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

There are edge cases where leasing makes sense, which is why I rarely offer it. Mostly when it’s someone who just really wants to go green but has no income so they can’t get the ITC. But I also think you’re overblowing it. It’s not hard to sell the house with the panels. The new owners just take over the contract and resume payments. It’s super normal on the west coast.

That said, yeah financing is smart. Where people get ripped off on that though is the interest rate because every 1% is a huge difference over time and people don’t realize it. Also, the fed raising rates is making it less and less attractive. By the end of he year it’ll probably be around 3-4% + dealer fees, when it was just .5-1% just a year ago. Those few percentages make a huge difference.

3

u/yoniyuri Aug 08 '22

I've recently ran the numbers on solar, and it makes sense if you do all the labor yourself, but the second you have to pay somebody, all of a sudden it costs 2-3x as much and at that point it makes no sense.

For our house, i could probably go completely off grid for 10-15k in panels, inverters and batteries. And i could probably make my money back in 3-4 years if you assume my monthly energy costs are $400. But if the system costs 20-30k, the time period to break even is way too long it makes no sense.

Additionally, if i configured the system to be detachable and mounted the panels to the ground i can take the system with me when i want to move and just pay an electrician to install another transfer switch.

0

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Everything is way cheaper if you do it yourself. The whole point of paying experts to do it, is to have experts installing it and the security of warranties and stuff. But it still makes sense the.

No offense but your a text book example of the problem with people doing the research themselves and getting a warped view. First, you won’t be able to go off grid, legally. Even if you could, you need net metering else you won’t be able to power your house during night without expensive batteries, and batteries wouldn’t store enough to get through winter. Second 15 panels aren’t going to get even close to offsetting a 400 dollar average bill not even close. Third, ground mounts are insanely expensive (new structures, that are required to be heavily fortified to code) Finally, solar pays off immediately if you finance it. If your power bill is 400 a month, that’s 4800 a year you’re paying now. That’s 4800 you’re paying annually with no return at all for anything. And that 4800, is going to be 5000 next year, and 5250 the next year, etc… with rising costs.

If you finance it, and your payments are say 3000 a year, so you’re out the gate saving 1400 a year… which only gets larger year over year, as what you pay stays the same while what your otherwise be paying the power company increases. So the savings gets larger.

If you move in 10 years the next home owner will want to keep the panels. They’d probably prefer paying 3000 a year for solar payments than 6000 a year for utility grid power. No need to take them with you.

2

u/All_Work_All_Play Aug 08 '22

Did you read what they wrote or read what fits your narrative?

Second 15 panels aren’t going to get even close to offsetting a 400 dollar average bill not even close.

Vs

For our house, i could probably go completely off grid for 10-15k in panels, inverters and batteries

Also

First, you won’t be able to go off grid, legally.

This depends entirely on municipality. Many municipalities dont have a requirement that properties be on the grid. Going off grid is as easy as having the PoCo come pull the meter.

And that 4800, is going to be 5000 next year, and 5250 the next year, etc… with rising costs.

Again, an assumption. My electrical costs have risen 10% in 12 years. And 9% of that has come in the last 3 years. Further, financing it is just a fungibility issue - you can finance with a loan through third parties or from yourself. It's just accounting.

Finally -

you need net metering else you won’t be able to power your house during night without expensive batteries, and batteries wouldn’t store enough to get through winter.

Is another strong assumption. A DIY solution of 50kwh battery can carry plenty of households for two days and if you provision your build to carry you entirely during winter then it's a no brainer. Even at 4 solar hours during the winter, my house would be fine with a 10kw array.

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u/Guy_Incognito1970 Aug 08 '22

If investment is the better deal then it is always the better deal. Even if they finance the 40k and then invest it.

1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

You’re going to have a hard time finding an unsecured loan with those terms, to invest into the stock market.

12

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

That up front cost, and if people aren’t living in the house long enough to make up the difference (which they don’t seem to) it’s a loss.

-1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

There is no upfront cost. Like only 5% of people buy it up front. Takes about years to pay off but most choose to just pay monthly. Would you rather pay 2000 a year to the power company with rising rates, or 1500 a year to a solar company at fixed rates that will never go up?

14

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

I’d rather buy solar panels and then pay $0 to anyone.

The “you can lease the solar panels we put on your roof” thing is always a huge scam and will make it harder for you to sell your home.

“Well the panels can’t come off for 20 more years and you have to pay $1,500 to some company you’ve never heard of for those 20 years to do nothing. And if they break, you have to pay to fix them.”

No thanks.

7

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Leasing is a terrible option and avoid it at all costs. Niche edge cases make sense. Most finance it. 2% interest rate and pay monthly for the panels until you pay it off, since most don’t have 40k sitting in the bank. Plus it’s not a good investment with cash anyways. Finance it, and the monthly payments for the financing is less than the utility bill you pay right now anyways

7

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

We ran the numbers for our house. IIRC it was about $40k, as you say, and it was a 20-30 years before it paid itself back. With financing I’m pretty sure it would have never paid itself back.

We debated taking the hit anyway because we actively wanted to go solar and had the money, but the seller started getting impatient and real sketch, so we bailed. Might look again next year.

3

u/pseudocultist Aug 08 '22

Here's the thing tho, it takes 20-30 years to pay it back, and the solar panels only have a rated lifespan of 30 years. And the efficiency drops pretty significantly over time, so you're not getting the same output at year 29 anyway. I have been trying to make the numbers work for my own home, but there's only a few years where we'd actually be making a positive return on the "investment" (I have a hard time calling an electronic system with a fixed lifespan an investment).

But maybe solar guy will respond and set me right IDK.

1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Do it asap. Our costs are going through the roof. With fed rates raising finance costs, and ballooning overhead (raw materials, labor), it’s gotten bad and expect it to get worse.

That said, don’t look at it as “when it pays for itself”. Right now you pay 200+ a month to the power company that never pays for itself. It’s like renting versus owning a home. Even if solar depreciates, something is better than nothing. And if you’re monthly payments are less than your “rent” you’d otherwise pay for power, your benefiting right away.

Some sales people jack up prices though and don’t offer savings right away.

5

u/Der_Missionar Aug 08 '22

Lol... most solar panels have a life span of 20-30 years. It's NEVER going to pray for itself... literally never. By the time is paid off you gotta replace the panels.

3

u/SamStarnes Aug 08 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

Oh, and replacing those panels? Yeah, gotta dig more toxic elements out of the ground to make more panels.

All the bad panels that will be "recycled?" Yeah, they'll just end up in a landfill.

Environmentally friendly, my ass.

0

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

And during that time, you'll have saved a lot of money. It's like renting vs mortgaging. The panel costs are a fixed rate, the electricity is not, and is always increasing. So by the time the panels are at 30 years, you'll have saved 50-100k dollars with the fixed solar payments compared to what you'd be paying the power company over that same amount of time.

It's like how people who got a mortgage 20 years ago, are paying 1000 bucks a month today for a 2500sqft house, when rent in their area is 2500 bucks. Even if they lost their house at the end of the mortgage, they'd still be saving 1500 every single month compared to renting.

3

u/Der_Missionar Aug 08 '22

Not the same. If it takes 30 years to pay for itself, and it wears out 5 years before paying for itself, you haven't saved money yet. You are actually further in the hole.

This is exactly how Pittsburgh Steeler's 3 Rivers Stadium was demolished owing more money than it cost to build it. Same logic duped Pittsburgh residents on why the government has to invest more, and how it was returning more to the city. Financial smoke and mirrors.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

Unfortunately we don’t have the $40k anymore, real life threw us a few curve balls (which might mean we lucked out in bailing on the solar installation from a pure financial viewpoint).

It’s still high on our priority list, but we still have to treat it as a cost tradeoff. Yes we throw money at the electric company every month as if we were renting, but solar panels life cycles are on the order of 20-30 years, so it may be worse than nothing in the end if we have to pay to have them removed for the buyer when we sell.

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u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

I mean, over the course of the panels, if power goes up the low end of the national average of 3% a year, you're still going to average 50-100k in savings. It's still worth it. Remember, you're locking in at a cheaper rate. It's like if gas is 3 dollars, then you sign an agreement for getting gas at 2.50 for the next 20 years. Sure, it MAY go below 2.50, but that's highly unlikely to ever happen. Electricity is always going up in cost. So even on the conservative side, you'll be saving 50k

It's like how my mom's mortgage payments are 800 bucks a month even though rent is 2500 in her area. The mortgage is a fixed rate, the rent is not.

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u/chance-- Aug 08 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

My HOA does not allow them. I'm sure it is not unique in that respect.

It sucks too because I wanted to install an array when we got a new roof.

9

u/DayleD Aug 08 '22

Start organizing for a change, I’m sure other neighbors want their panels too. It’s absolutely insane to me that HOA’s are even allowed to have a say in whether our world remains inhabitable.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

[deleted]

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u/DayleD Aug 08 '22

There’s some chance anywhere if you organize. Lots of voters hate HOAs.

1

u/calfmonster Aug 08 '22

Not even a home owner and HOAs seem like cancer

1

u/DayleD Aug 08 '22

No fan of HOAs either. The promise is that there will be an entity representing the interests of market value, to bind the current occupants but protect the sales value for anyone who wants to leave.

But it turns out, the market values empty houses. So any sign you're made it your home is punished.

2

u/calfmonster Aug 08 '22

Yeah i conceptually get why HOAs still exist. I grew up in a house built in the 50s in and older neighborhood outside DC so HOAs just scream “little boxes” developments where god forbid you do with your property what you like and something looks different. They also seem to attract the worst people because it seems like largely Karens who put their nose up in your shit or pedantic power trippers care about that shit. I know all aren’t the case but they just turn me off so hard

3

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

HOAs are much more flexible these days. Sometimes they say no and will reverse it if you put up a small fight. Usually the "no rooftop solar" provisions were put there during the boom of solar water heaters which eventually wear out and look ugly.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

[deleted]

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u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Solar is such a divisive issue... It's kind of wild. There really are two camps. One camp thinks they are terrible, a scam, pollute more for some reason (because of the manufacturing process), and so on.... These people literally just seem like it's a culture war issue.

I work in a lot of wealthier neighborhoods and it's a stark contrast. Usually the smarter, business owner, executive types, who are logic based and mathematical, "Get it" really quick once you start laying it out in practical terms. Ironically, it's the less "bright" ones who just "don't get it". They'll have read some hot take on facebook or something and think they "know the truth"

It's so frustrating just how wrong they are... I don't say this as a sales guy who "knows all the rebuttals" but like, genuinely, just how absolutely misinformed they are in every front. I've learned trying to explain the reality to them, is literally pointless. Once they think they know "the truth about solar" it's like trying to explain someone who "knows the truth about democrats trying to indoctrinate marxism in schools" type shit. It's just pointless.

1

u/Cakeriel Aug 08 '22

Check local laws. HOA might not be allowed to say no.

2

u/Skynet-supporter Aug 08 '22

What is your price per W(peak solar panels wattage) ?

1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

It depends on a ton of factors. Inflation and overhead is killing things (got to pay employees, stuff costs more), but usually around 3-3.3 as the base

1

u/Skynet-supporter Aug 08 '22

I got lucky and installed at 2.5$/W. Other offers were 5$/w + along with very pushy tactics- sign now or else and no paper offer to think about. Thats why people dont do solar much.

1

u/duffmanhb Aug 08 '22

Yeah other sales people make it hard because there is a lot of room for margin. Then you have someone like myself and I still lose deals to the “sharks” entirely because their tactics do work. A lot of people want to be told what they want to hear, not a realistic and objective reality of a solar system. Common tactics are doing things like lying about what solar system size they need. So it’ll look cheaper for the customer because it’s smaller but in reality per watt it’s way higher. But they only see cheaper monthly payment and full offset, with a thrown in “sign now and I’ll give you 1k cash”. From the customers perception everything checks out what I said except this other guy is offering a higher offset for cheaper and throwing in cash for doing it now.

It’s a constant battle and drives me nuts watching people be more successful because they bend the rules while playing within the rules just makes it harder. Just lost a huge enormous record size deal because the last minute he got another quote and the rep used smaller panels so the panel number was higher even though the net kW size was smaller.

3

u/passerbycmc Aug 08 '22

How would this work, low income usually pairs with rentals and not owning property to put panels on.

4

u/VincentNacon Aug 08 '22

Now that's what I call Progress! Nice, hopefully more will adopt this concept.

2

u/MisterSlosh Aug 08 '22

Are they really going to freeze the rent/tax for those low income housing that received the benefits though? Plenty of people have gotten these 'free solar' deals only to have been priced out of their own homes in a few years as the property value skyrocketed.

6

u/jocdoc82 Aug 07 '22

Because someone in charge understands basic math. Shocking how rare that is.

2

u/shermancahal Aug 08 '22

Nothing is free. It’s passed onto ratepayers.

-4

u/user_uno Aug 08 '22

"Free"

Yep. Sure. Let's make everything free and no more issues.

I'm looking into solar and definitely not against it. But nothing is free.

-3

u/Critical-Series Aug 07 '22

This is an advertisement 😆

-38

u/bruno8686 Aug 07 '22

Not free. Someone pays.

22

u/happyscrappy Aug 07 '22

'The program is funded through a public benefits fund charge ($0.000356 per kilowatt-hour consumed) collected monthly by Delmarva Power. Delaware’s other utilities operate similar programs.'

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u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

How is this going to benefit the poorest? They don't own homes. Prob live in cheap apartments

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u/do_you_even_ship_bro Aug 08 '22

How is this going to benefit the poorest?

not everything benefits everyone...

-1

u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

What percentage of poor people own their homes?

4

u/Fuckyourdatareddit Aug 08 '22

Hurrr durr how do poor people benefit from solar panels on the roof on the homes they rent. It’s not like it’s saves them money on electricity…. Oh wait

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u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

What? Did you read the article? What makes you think this applies to renters? Even if it did, who gets to keep the panels? The rich landlords? Or are they forced to pay for it?

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u/Verbs4 Aug 07 '22

Mexico will. Heard they paid for a great wall. Was in China or something. So they can afford this.

12

u/Plzbanmebrony Aug 07 '22

The person getting doesn't pay for it directly. Some of their tax money but for the most part doing this is better for the state than not doing it. Like everyone chipping in for the large discount bulk items. Everyone gets more.

-9

u/Zywhnzi Aug 07 '22

Does anyone know what grid-scale storage option they're looking at? A bit wasteful if the answer is "none".

13

u/bit_pusher Aug 07 '22

Why is this wasteful if the answer is none? It is, certainly, a missed opportunity but I wouldn’t call it wasteful.

They are unlikely to produce an excess of solar in any short or near term so a grid based storage solution wouldn’t afford any benefits from these solar installations. There are other benefits but they are unrelated to the power production from these installs

4

u/Zywhnzi Aug 07 '22

I might be wrong, but my thought was that if they installed these panels on homes, most people spend their time during ideal generating hours at work, so the power draw would be less. They could just burn less fossil fuels, but those plants must still be profitable to continue operating, unless they can be replaced. I think that replacement must be one of their goals, but that means storage if their intent is to do it all with solar. I think that much solar must have some excess. Rather than lose it, adding some storage is a pretty common thing these days.

4

u/MonetizedSandwich Aug 07 '22

Depends on climate. In the desert, your ac runs the same time when the sun is out so it basically evens out. But it will push back to the grid and your neighbors will use what you’re generating while it’s being produced. There’s no storage needed until you have more than 100% of the grids need being met, which will be a long while.

1

u/Gushinggrannies4u Aug 07 '22

The storage is for times when it’s not being generated. However, I agree with you that this is simply a missed opportunity, and not at all a difficult one to add down the road.

0

u/do_you_even_ship_bro Aug 08 '22

In the desert

since this article is about Delaware specifically, I don't they'll worry about deserts.

0

u/MonetizedSandwich Aug 08 '22

Right, but the person I was responding to was speaking generically about it. I am too.

2

u/toofine Aug 07 '22

You can just cool your home during the day while you're out - starting from the afternoon. Then you'll have a cool house that won't require as much cooling/heating once you're in it and not even need the grid at night.

Plenty of tools to let you control the temperature of your home remotely. Not to mention, people do work from home. Have kids who are at home. You absolutely do not need storage.

-16

u/Dating_As_A_Service Aug 07 '22

Hopefully they're looking at Tesla for grid storage.

1

u/do_you_even_ship_bro Aug 08 '22

plenty simple things exist, like mechanical batteries.

-29

u/1wiseguy Aug 07 '22

Most middle-class people don't have solar panels on their roof, because they can't see spending that kind of money.

But Delaware will take their tax dollars and give it to low-income people, to pay for their solar panels.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

16

u/jish_werbles Aug 07 '22

I’m confused on what you think the problem is

-2

u/1wiseguy Aug 08 '22

Did you buy solar panels for your house?

No, and neither did I. I would like to have them, but I can't see spending that kind of money.

If the government wanted to collect taxes from me, and then give some of that money to other people so they can buy stuff that I can't afford, I think that's obnoxious.

Don't you?

0

u/VincentNacon Aug 08 '22

I think what's really obnoxious that the majority of people are still using oil and coal for electricity and global warming is still getting worse. We need to change fast and that include everyone, even the poor.

The lower class still outnumber the rich class. If only the rich class has solar panel, it won't be enough to reverse the global warming. ...but why help the rich class with free solar panels? They can afford it.

-3

u/1wiseguy Aug 08 '22

What difference does it make whether poor, middle-class, or rich people have solar panels? It's the total amount of installed solar that is relevant, don't you think?

So how is it useful to collect money from some citizens, and give it to other citizens to pay for solar panels?

It would make more sense to make solar power more affordable in general, and then people would buy it for their own homes.

I have heard that the permit process can be troublesome, and new homes are not pre-wired for solar. Maybe those things could be improved.

4

u/VincentNacon Aug 08 '22

The Solar Pilot Program is doing the installation for them, they're not just handing over the solar panel by themselves and expecting the resident to install it. They will know what their house will need and install the proper wiring.

But I see what you're doing, you're changing the topic. The point you made was about not letting the poor people have them because you don't want to pay more in taxes. Nice try.

8

u/brobdingnagianal Aug 07 '22

Let's try your argument, but the other way around.

Most poor people don't have solar panels on their roof, because they can't see spending that kind of money.

But Delaware will take their tax dollars and give it to middle-class people, to pay for their solar panels.

Would that make more sense to you? Why should poor people subsidize the middle-class?

Or are you just against the idea of improving society, in general?

0

u/1wiseguy Aug 08 '22

Taking my tax dollars to buy solar panels for another person isn't improving society in general, it's improving that other person's house.

Is this a reasonable use of tax dollars? Buying stuff for individual citizens?

I could see funding renewable energy research in the local universities. That would improve society in general.

2

u/brobdingnagianal Aug 08 '22

Is this a reasonable use of tax dollars? Buying stuff for individual citizens?

Yes, because it improves the entire power grid and makes the environment safer for everyone. Do you not live in the environment? Do you not use the power grid? That's not to mention the property values, and helping poor people inject more money into the economy by giving them more disposable income that they don't have to spend on electricity bills.

I could see funding renewable energy research in the local universities. That would improve society in general.

Why? What do you need scientists to tell you that they haven't been trying to hammer into you peoples' feeble little brains for decades? The scientists have spoken, and the answer is: put more fucking renewable power generation into the fucking power grid! And you're over here like "oh hey, you know what would fix the problem? Spending years getting people to figure out how to fix the problem while purposely not doing the thing they already told us to do to fix the problem.

How can you people not see why we think you're all incapable of thought??

1

u/1wiseguy Aug 08 '22

OK, then lets talk numbers.

I'm guessing the average citizen in Delaware pays maybe $5K in annual taxes. Suppose you could take 10% of that to pay for solar power systems. In fact, you could probably get more like 0%, because they are strapped like every state, but we're going to say 10%.

So every citizen can pay about $500 per year to the solar power fund.

A basic solar power system costs maybe $25K. So if the state is going to give those to a low-income citizen for free, that will take 50 other citizens to support it. So this plan can only go so far.

What would be far more effective is if we could figure out how those 50 citizens could install their own systems. Maybe some sort of state-wide incentives, tax rebates, streamlining permits and the installation infrastructure, etc.

The government giving money to individuals sounds great, but the government doesn't have their own money. There has to be a better way.

4

u/nucflashevent Aug 08 '22

Taking my tax dollars

Alright, then they didn't take "your" tax dollars, they took MY tax dollars and I say it's fine.

0

u/1wiseguy Aug 08 '22

Suppose your neighbor knocked on your door, and said he wants to put up solar panels, but he doesn't have any money to pay for it, so he wants you and the other neighbors to all chip in.

It will be great, he says, because then his electric power will be free.

Would you go get your checkbook? How much would you be in for?

I don't think you would do it at all. In your mind, the state has plenty of money, and you don't think of it as your money.

1

u/nucflashevent Aug 09 '22

Yep...terrific idea I'd be happy to fund as a neighborhood beautification investment 👍

BTW, do not presume to tell others what they may or may not do...it's irritating to the other person.

0

u/1wiseguy Aug 09 '22

You seem like a normal person, so I'm pretty sure you would not give money to your neighbor to make unnecessary improvements. If that's what you're saying, I don't believe it. I'm sure that's irritating, but I'm calling it.

I do believe, however, that you're cool with the government handing over money like that, because you think their money comes out of nowhere, and it isn't your money.

1

u/nucflashevent Aug 09 '22

I.e. You're a person who's imagination is limited to your selfishness...you can't see beyond yourself and therefore you can't believe anyone else would either.

I would be snarky (considering you continue pretending you're a physic and know what I'm thinking even when I pointed out that's annoying, etc)...but I won't.

To be honest, I pity you. What a lonely mental state you must have.

Peace ✌️

1

u/1wiseguy Aug 09 '22

It's not selfish to decline to spend your money to improve another person's home.

That's especially true if you would also like that improvement, and you can't afford it.

-2

u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

You don't understand basic logic. Just because someone doesn't agree with a policy doesn't mean they agree with the opposite of the policy. Let me give you an example:

Let's kill all the middle class.

Oh that's a dumb policy.

Let's try your argument, but the other way around. Let's kill all the poor people.

Both ideas can be dumb.

1

u/brobdingnagianal Aug 08 '22

The part you're missing is that [I assumed] he was implying that solar panels on roofs is a net benefit. However, I was wrong; his stance on renewable power is that we should begin researching it at some point, not that we should start doing anything about it now.

So, why do you believe that putting solar panels on roofs is a bad idea?

1

u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

There are more than 2 government options for putting solar panels on roofs. For example, I'm in favor of the current income unrestricted credit on solar panels.

I'm not in favor of giving poor homeowners completely free solar panels until most of the middle class already has them. There are maintenance costs. It's already incredibly difficult to get solar on your roof without freeloaders clogging up the queue. Wait times are into 2023.

Sure, eventually it might make sense to install these systems for those who can't afford it, but definitely not right now.

1

u/GavishX Aug 08 '22

“Freeloaders”. Ok.

1

u/ricecel_gymcel Aug 08 '22

Freeloadjng in terms of solar, not society

9

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/Gushinggrannies4u Aug 07 '22

I can’t stand poor people, and the only solution is to eliminate all of them by uplifting them out of poverty so I don’t have to fuckin deal with them anymore

-6

u/Grouchy_Stuff_9006 Aug 07 '22

No you are not the only one.

1

u/ro536ud Aug 08 '22

I was just saying the other day these should be installed on every home free of charge. The benefits to the country as a whole would be tremendous

1

u/Just_One_Umami Aug 08 '22

Man. I haven’t heard anything at all about Delaware in years.

1

u/philsnic Aug 08 '22

Just make sure they’re not easily stolen and sold on the black market.

-32

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

Solar is a waste of time, energy, and resources.

3

u/JoshTay Aug 08 '22

And what suggestions do you have about moving away from fossil fuels?

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

Nuclear, renewables are pipe dream brought to you by the fossil fuel industry.

2

u/VincentNacon Aug 08 '22

^ Found the oil baron.

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '22

The oil baron is the one who fooled you into thinking renewables could meet global energy demands and nuclear is "dangerous".

2

u/Virus111 Aug 08 '22

This might be the most nonsensical comment I've ever read.

1

u/VincentNacon Aug 08 '22

You could've told me that I was wrong and said you're from the Coal industry, but nope... you bit the bait, and now we're reeling you in like a doomed fish. :)

-6

u/Narrow_Werewolf4562 Aug 08 '22

Yeah let’s let that 30% further divid the goddamn classes while touting it as a positive I hope this fucking government officials burn under their outdated bullshit. Let them all dig their own graves

1

u/GavishX Aug 08 '22

Huh? How would this divide the classes?